sleep you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm trying hard welcome to the big picture. join me on a journey to the heart of the problem tim place is hidden from the tourists you're going to meet some real criminal insiders although they may not be the usual news makers you see on t.v. . each. week. looking. to eat.

oh and welcome to crossfire i'm peter lavelle what do we mean when we use the term the west is that geographic an historical or more of an outlook in a state of mind many around the world have an ambivalent attitude towards the west indeed the west remains relatively rich but it is also associated with arrogance and violence.

you cross talk what we mean by the term the west i'm joined by stephen lemon in chicago he is a blogger author and radio host for the progressive radio network in washington we have david markel he's a former deputy assistant secretary of state and in toronto we crossed to michael coren he is a t.v. and radio host columnist and author all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i really encourage it steven if i go to you first when you hear the term the west what can't what comes to mind for you when the term wears really reflects western values western civilization and i think many viewers know about or maybe you're old enough to remember what can be said about western civilization when asked he said he thought it was a good idea it was a classic gandhi put down he knows the over many centuries that western civilization has caused so many millions so much over so much time

indeed. western civilization i'm afraid is falling a civilized and we're talking about economic political social military i shudder when i think of the western civilization and western values have done and it gives me much to write about and i've written a couple of books i've written three books on it i didn't call the western values a western civilization but i reflected those things in what i wrote and i discuss it all the time in my own radio program in the many articles that i write i write them daily before the program today i draft out on an article i'll get out tomorrow it certainly reflects western values i'm afraid i have nothing good to say about them all right on that point i'm going to thank you jamie john good job there was a lot there go ahead while i look the west does not have

a monopoly on virtue and it's not devoid of of evil but obviously i would strongly disagree with what the previous speaker mentioned i think that the west has been a charm that we grew used to during the cold war when it was a battle between east and west when it was a battle between a society that was going to advance democracy and and market economy that put the individual at the center and had the state as a servant to the citizen rather than a citizen a servant to the state and also the i also the west has the ability for critical self examination and to advance itself it's made many mistakes and as a learn from it ok michael jump in where do you come in on this. freddy very interesting that a comment about gandy you know where my wife is from south asia so i'm very familiar with indian culture and you'll be pushed to find an indian today even more

than a billion people who would take that comment by gandy seriously gandy of course was a product of western civilization he was educated in the united kingdom and for a time in south africa and india went through generations of poverty until it actually rejected it spawns the idea of gandy embrace capitalism we think more than two hundred fifty million people have been given good incomes in the past twenty years because of that love is too simplistic to say that any one side or one cause has all the truth but if you want the idea of western values first this is important that doesn't just mean the united states i'm not here to bash america i love the united states but western values and virtues important word is more than just the us i would trace this back i suppose to the ancient greeks to hell in it culture through to the romans to the birth of christianity very important that of course came from the middle east but expanded into into europe and the west of course bad things have been done in the name of western values terrible things of committing the crime of love democracy freedom communism all sorts of things but if we think about progress science enlightenment for example the power to enforce

slavery but then the ability and the morality to end slavery so it's just too facile to say that the west is bad the west is wrong and if you look at the emerging world it's not embracing the values of say the former soviet union embracing the english language a controlled capitalism progress something approaching what the west enjoys now civility democracy it goes wrong but generally goes right the feeling i mean you can take some of the values like democracy ok but you shouldn't force it on other people i mean they were talking about different things. well i'm not sure what democracy are you talking here actually july let me let me go to you in person on this one here because i think everyone likes them ocracy everybody does ok but bombing someone to have it is another thing i had stephen. well i don't think any nation has the right to force any system on another nation in america of course many makes a practice of that it institutionalize forcing its ways on other nations and

international law is very clear on this this is absolutely illegitimate illegal but when you talk about democracy i write a lot about democracy i go back to america's founders and i can assure you in their own words the last thing they established in america was the mockery see they deplore democracy they wanted no part of it i mean look at the country they they they instituted they gave voting rights to fifteen percent of the population blacks weren't people they were commodities women had no rights they were homemakers in childcare is what kind of democracy is that america exterminated its native people it in slave this black people and we got rid of but we got rid of chattel slavery and what do we have today in this place. wait slavery i mean you can really take america piece by piece michael you are well these are just mindless cliches i mean they just silly out there i mean i want to not all conversation here but with all

respect if we're just going to if we're going to speak in cliches we're not going to get anywhere first of all historically this is just infantile the founding fathers believe very much in democracy no democracy involved of course and yet in america see that only applied to people who own property you had a birth defect of slavery which the country then threw itself into a civil war largely to remove but when you talk about imposing values on others i'm sorry i was all for imposing values on national socialist germany we had a right not legation to go in there and destroy that regime fascist panas well i don't look at the iraq war i was against the iraq war afghanistan i think there's an argument for that but this idea that somehow america imposing its values across the world is the norm that's not true and the united states getting involved in the second world war leaving five hundred fifty thousand men dead in in africa in asia and europe a war it could know that i read a lot of money and again i go there are going to try you know their knowledge let's take the example of libya the second world war i think the arab league should not going in there ok well then we should mention it libya libya was the wrong decision

you know what i don't i do not understand libya gadhafi was turning right he's been a monster and we tolerated him he wanted to become part of the west and we got rid of him i was completely against libya i'll go further i think mubarak should have been supported i think the arab spring is going to be a disaster for democracy and minorities and women and gay people and christians throughout the arab world yes i'm against it ok but david i want to say with these values things i mean people in the arab world want democracy ok do they have to be delivered it with a drone. well i i think i think what people want is they want they want justice they want opportunity they don't want an election as a one day event that's not going to see any institutions built that allow them you know we allow them to determine their own sitting they determine that themselves why do we have to be the i am literally what happened why i look we're in or not the nanny of the world whether it's whether it's europe or the united states but i

think that the that the united states and europe and the west needs to be very clear about what our values are and that means that you're supporting people who want democracy either in principle or in material support and what you know the reality is that a full blown democracy is the most stable form of government there is but that transition is a very very unstable one and i don't disagree with everything that one of the. panelists said that there is questions about why libya why not syria. what do we do in egypt is a big nevers and so you kind of famously said you don't want to pull your support from an existing leader and tell you know what's going to replace them and he sat obviously in the in the seat when when the shah of iran left so there is a lot of questions about how best to respond to change how best to promote change

but i think that it is absolutely right that that governments have to stay ahead of their people and their desire for greater civil liberties greater democracy greater opportunity to work in the marketplace ok steve i think it's really quite interesting when we were bringing up the arab spring here but for decades the west just turned its eyes away from civil society and democratic ideas that all of a sudden they're very interested in. well i don't think the west is interested in not this local arab spring is really a bogus term it's a western term peter it is not a middle east term and the situation in the middle east right now is worse than when the so-called arab spring began around winter two thousand and eleven tunisia egypt again conditions in tunisia to now worse than on the banality mubarak is gone morsi wants to establish and islamofascism dictatorship that's what morsi is all

about he told we don't bring that about and then are you still using that we should of we should have influence that the outcome we didn't bring about we should have learned or praying or the we didn't we didn't wounded i think i think a certain amount of business i think sir that maybe whether that had only riding on your blog you should read a little bit of history and current events michael it looks like you agree with stephen i want to do it here let's let michael go well if i if i may again i think i know facts can be annoying but arab spring actually is an arabic word it's a direct translation from the arabic now what happens in egypt for example i may approve or not approve of you can't have it both ways we have one the panelists saying that western values appalling and repugnant do so much damage the same time he's moaning about what is going on in the middle east right now i think that western american anglo-american european policy towards the middle east has generally been what it's certainly lacked nuance but democracy is more than about

as someone said earlier one person one vote maybe one election is about a context is about respecting the opposition it's about tolerating the people lose about a free press you know in turkey right now you do have democracy but you have more journalists in prison and then the other country on earth what i'm frightened about in egypt is that if women turning up to vote are denied that vote because they're not wearing a job or a burka we're in serious trouble right gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here we're going to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the west stay with r.t. . well

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welcome back to crossfire and people about to mind you we're talking about what the west means. ok day i'd like to go back to you and we have been talking about democracy and i think all of us on this program agree with democratic values ok but the united states and its western allies like to deny democracy in many places and it has done for us for decades ok you can look at hamas you can look at other places where they've been elections but the west say you know we don't like that ok doesn't that hurt the west and that this is not necessarily the idea of democracy. well i look i find it interesting that the suggestion that the united states is

denying democracy obviously during the cold war the battle lines was was who's with the west who's who's with the soviet union and the top of the agenda was not necessarily whether the leader of a certain country was was democratic or not those days are behind us and of course i think that that the principled stand for democracy the principle stand for human rights is a very very important thing that said that said the world during this administration has been a very unstable world we have more crises in the middle east we have problems in asia so while you want to pursue democracy and pursue the institutions of democracy that does not mean that you want just any radical glue group to come to power through through intimidation and a again have perhaps one election not govern

in a fair and just way not expand justice to its population so yes you want to produce promote democracy but you want to be realistic about it you want to promote institutions that will further the rights and freedoms of individuals not simply have an election day event and then that's the last one ok well michael why shouldn't people if i go right have been question that premise because you said that the west didn't like the results of the election with hamas being elected well it doesn't have to like it it be one thing if the west intervened to disrupt the government to get rid of them left right i mean canada man canadian canada was the first country to say what mass is elected we will have no relationship with you it has a right to do that democracy resulted it may have been a flawed democracy it may not be it wasn't democracy may be quite intolerant but the mass won in gaza that's a result the west doesn't have to prove that the west doesn't have to give. all money to these countries you can have your election but we don't have to say we

approve of the result this happens international not just with underdeveloped countries but when we think of the west's first interest is the west and there should be no apology but it's not by now the west can have feel their own interest but if they can't control what the values mean democracy ok so i would tend to disagree with you on that ok you know be democratic but if you have an election we still don't like the outcome it sounds hypocritical why but again when those then we're going to have a deal with them whether the government when it is time here david you on jump in. now i just i just agree i agree with the point that that you know you accept what democracy has brought but you don't need to necessarily support the government and you can you can call on that new government for standards of governance for standards of governance for its own people for standards of governance in this relationship with its neighbors yes but david then then the palestinian people are being punished for voting the wrong way right

i don't see how they're being punished by men for voting the wrong way ok well what i can assure you and i believe it all right c.n.n. you know it is now you know you've got gaza is under blockade ok because on the right because of hamas gaza isn't there in gaza resent early in the illegal blockade when humanitarian missions try to come in the israeli navy intercepts them in murders humanitarian activists they murdered nine on a mission a couple of years ago in may two thousand and ten piece of coal had saying we're lost and america is behind this when we allow them to go israel and america and so when we would all have been the. well maybe you said i mean he does a lot about the wall with that without actually having been there because i have and i can tell you as much as i think that israel palestine i'm not sure if they'll be a solution but i wish they could be one but the idea that the israeli navy is blockading and murdering people well i mean you have to want to say that those that use of those approaches everything really. want any aggression going on why if you said

what i was not comes down to to support reading communities in the west bank on a daily basis do you support institutionalized torture you support institutional as i realize and i'm not. sure he said all the right that support israel and going from stages you have the you know an american. of middle eastern politics yeah yeah yeah yeah america bad america but i mean look let's be serious they are and this is that this is a down market like hong kong they say these are our policies are not very. gentleman david. look if you understand i think i think if we're going to do iran as i say they're going there again it's the end of the michael michael let david go let david go go i think. i mean. the united states the west is going to promote its interests if a people elect

a government and that government is not a stabilizing effect in the region but is lobbing missiles at its neighbor then they're going to not be supported by the west they're going to be called to account for that and the united nations and any suggestion you know the one panelist says that everything in the in the west is bad and then it also says that we're responsible for everything either we do something and then it's bad or we don't do something it is bad that we didn't do something i mean i think that really is a everything we live. stephen go ahead well thank you very much i wish the west is that of the west has done a lot for me the whiskey be a wonderful education when it was affordable the whiskey be everything that i have you know without without the west that i lived in i couldn't have what i have now here a lot of wonderful things about the way as i pointed out before i see the very serious flaws and see i mean there are so many major ones there's not enough time to talk

about them but certainly no nation has the right to intervene in the internal affairs of another unless that nation is attacking the host nation threatens to attack is far as american democracy goes i see nothing democratic about america they're all good money by their standards by their standards you and we just by that said you would suggest interaction and iran by the united states because if it threatens to attack israel so by your standard the united states should pursue but i was on rails or earlier your standard we should pursue those in gaza military militarily well that's well that's a big lie iran has threatened no one iran hasn't attacked another country in two or three centuries in case you don't know you hit the wrong ok you're right it's good to have i think you should read more and write less gentlemen let's change gears here michael what about drones how does this you know the west looks intensely violent in that part of the world and the legality of it is very unclear talk about

drones do you you mean the middle east of afghanistan what precisely you talking about pakistan. well you know pakistan and i think this is the most troubled and troubling region in the entire world actually for even more so than iran because you have a government in the country that still is meant to be allied to the west but of course is playing a game has a nuclear bomb drones are killing innocent people as well as the guilty you know there was a time when war is for each other face to face and it was never a good thing sometimes it's inevitable but today these drones are being flown by by no exam rooms three thousand miles away i don't blame the west for using drones it's an exclusive the west of course so people use them but i'm not sure how you deal with pakistan i know being on the television i meant to have supernatural wisdom but i don't know how you deal with a country where the you know there was a time in pakistan you know you wanted radicalism but the intelligentsia the educated class was sufficiently large it would always be ok when i was at university benazir bhutto was at university this is

a very very progressive accomplished person that's gone the educated classes haemorrhage pakistan it's not really in large numbers and radicalism is the order of the day and you have the intelligence services that are terribly unreliable i am very pessimistic but i wouldn't say withdraw foreign aid because people still need help in that country and india and kashmir and the troubled border this is going to be a fun time this year it really is david you know i go to the dry comment on rome was go ahead stephen jump in can i comment understand. well there's been a number of studies the most recent one was stanford university new york university and reading the report i quoted verbatim from it in two articles i wrote only two percent two percent of those killed are what america calls high level military targets nearly all the others who are civilians you talk about drone wars they are killing civilians the pentagon denies it the cia deny it mainly cia absolutely deny it but those are the cold hard facts do york university and stand for you over

a city don't play me talk to them david how do you think i was what they had was all about very heavily i was. in yemen it's in somalia it's in other countries there's a major base being expanded in djibouti. bases all over the place you've got these computer terminals you could fire away operators you got more close in operate is but there is a very. large and forty thousand realizing who in the us and i might call nigeria when i call jumpin houses or hear me sir sir sir just listen for a moment please give me the courtesy of this tell me who is fighting whom in yemen could you tell me. well it certainly isn't american though i'm handling for the yemenis it's not for america oh you know this is you know you i'll bet on your hind legs ronnie you kate you are not for america and then is not america's wall of yemen is a war being fought between superpowers in the region iran and saudi arabia sunni

and shia islam fighting each other in this area the idea that america does this paranoia that america is everywhere it's like you have these gutter and you seem and you think it's always a jewish person behind an issue yet iran turkey saudi arabia even the emerging egypt these are power brokers in the region there's a complexity of the world that goes beyond your idea of america in the west but everyone else good it's far more complex than that david i'm going to be the last word in the program go ahead why i think i think wasn't what's important to get back to is that the world is a very complex very dangerous world and i still think that the the west the economic prosperity that spread beyond the west the stability through to your atlantic institutions still has a lot to contribute to the world not a monopoly on virtue but certainly i think it's a powerful positive force for the world all right gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guest today in chicago washington and in toronto and thanks to

our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk brutes. you may leave me alone. cause. you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. the war. in.

iraq. colors are my. prime. concern.